Tom & Meghan's RV Page
The initial version of this webpage is a discussion of the costs we have incurred in 5 years of ownership and quite extensive use of two used Winnebago class "A" RV's. Many people considering their first RV are torn between buying new and buying used. If used, how old?
Our two Winnie's have been "very old" (1973) and "quite old, but great condition" (1984). In five years of use, we had three years of extremely good luck with repairs, followed by an engine failure far from home in January 2002. The 2002 season has included a number of inconvenient repair shop visits to correct problems that were the result of a very poor engine replacement job. (We are nearly back to normal now!)
I hope this website will give you some useful information on the kinds of things that go wrong with an older RV, assuming that you buy one in pretty good condition to begin with.
Winnie #1: We purchased a 1973 21' class "A" Winnebago in September of 1997. You've seen lots of them on the road (and sleeping behind barns!) - the old square cornered boxy looking things with corrugated aluminum skin. It had about 70,000 miles on the OD, the stove top (but not oven) worked, the furnace worked if you lit it manually, refrigerator was dead, slight roof leak, very good running Onan generator, VERY good running 318" Dodge, brakes and running gear all worked OK. Purchase price, $1300
Winnie #2: We sold #1 and purchased a 1984 23' Winnebago Chiefton three years later in the fall of 2000. Meghan looked many weeks for just the right model. We like the short class "A"s since they are a good trade-off for us of roomy interior space but small enough to easily maneuver and park in crowded lots or on the street. The example we purchased was immaculate inside and out. It was hard to believe it was 16 years old. There was not even any significant corrosion on the bolts holding the undercarriage and suspension parts together. Everything worked but the oven temperature control. There was almost no pitting or corrosion on the chrome bumpers. It is on a Chevy P-30 chassis, with a 454". There were about 78,000 miles on the unit when we got it. Purchase price, $7,300 (after tough negotiation in the fall!) It did not have a generator, but the wiring harness and fuel line for a generator had been installed at the factory. I took the good running Onan out of my old Winnie and installed it in the new one - an easy one day job for two men.
Making them nice and keeping them nice costs $$$$$!
At the outset, I'll say that we've spent much more maintaining and improving Winnie #2 even though it was in great shape when we bought it. I'll call it the psychology of "Oh, well" vs. the psychology of "it's so nice it deserves to be kept up". Winnie #1 was purchased as a "starter RV" so we could see what it was like to have one. Since it had rusty bumpers, carriage bolts holding the delaminated skin on in places, old faded cushions, etc, we just didn't care if things were in great shape, so long as it rolled down the highway. We spent very little on maintenance beyond a careful lube and oil change schedule.
Winnie #2 has deserved more. A perfect example is my immediate post-purchase preventative maintenance on the two units. When I bought Winnie #1 for $1300, it ran and drove OK, so I did an oil change and grease job for about $40. Then I drove it. When I bought Winnie #2 for a lot more money and apparently in very good condition, I decided to have an experienced RV shop go through all the running gear. I spent $1100 to have all the wheels pulled, all the brakes fully inspected, wheel bearings packed, and all suspension parts checked. Much of that was labor. The only things we actually changed were one tie rod end that was not even very bad, one airbag, all four shocks, a front end alignment, and a few minor brake parts. When I bought it I swapped the nearly new front tires from the old Winnie onto the new one. Nothing, but perhaps the front end alignment, was really needed. I just wanted to start off my ownership KNOWING that everything was right.
How Much Did We Use Them?
Lots! We manage off-road truck races about 20 weekends a year, and take students at our summer riding camp to horse shows and on field trips about 15 more days every summer. That's 35 days or more of just business use annually. We publish a Boating Guide to the St. Johns River in Florida and go there every winter to do research and sell books. We have driven out west twice in the past five years. We have averaged about 12,000 miles a year (more on the years with the western trips).
Major Expenses:
I hope to soon update this page with detailed routine maintenance costs for the past five years. But I'll list here the major expenses.
Winnie #1 performed nearly flawlessly for the 30,000 miles we put on her. Before taking her out west in her second season we spent $700 on a set of six new bargain brand radial tires. I kept the front two when I bought Winnie #2. One night on the way to a race, the throttle linkage came apart under the floor boards. I hooked up a piece of string to the carb (really!), and drove the last ten miles to the track. A repair with a hose clamp and piece of wire cost me a few bucks and lasted until I sold the unit. I had some trouble with the charging system. Old Dodges were known for weak voltage regulators, and I replaced two at about $20 each. I burned out the alternator on another trip, replacing it with a $65 rebuilt after driving 600 miles home while running the Onan to supply power for the headlights and ignition. That's about it for mechanical repairs.
I did use several gallons of the aluminum roof cement trying to seal the roof leaks, with varying success. I eventually removed the noisy and ineffective roof air unit and sealed the hole where it had been. I had to make some epoxy repairs to the hinge mounts on the doorway.
Winnie #2 also gave us thousands of miles of trouble free operation (until - - - - see below!). We purchased the Chiefton in the fall of 2000, drove it to Florida for our winter work, then back to New York State again in the spring. We used it for about 8,000 miles of weekend trips to races and horse shows in the spring and summer of 2001. Beyond routine maintenance, the only problems were a bad distributor cap and wires which I replaced myself on the way to Florida in the fall of 2000.
In the fall of 2001, we made a major elective investment, purchasing a US Gear overdrive gearbox for $2963.00 including installation. I will soon post a full story of my experience with this unit. I purchased it not expecting any significant increase in fuel economy and I was right. I wanted it to reduce engine noise and RPM at highway speeds, and for this it has been wonderful. My small 23' Winnie with the big 454" was an ideal candidate for overdrive.
Right after installing the overdrive, we left on a long tour of the west, putting about 12,000 miles on the RV in the next few months and finishing the tour in Florida for our winter work with our book project. Early in the trip we lost the speedometer cable due to poor installation of the overdrive, but had no other problems. Soon after arriving in Florida, we noticed a coolant leak and had our first real "break down" in more than 50,000 miles of RV travel! The water pump front seal went bad, and we found a local mechanic in Palatka, FL to do the repair for $300. It was a nasty job requiring removal of the air conditioning compressor and many accessory parts to get the water pump out.
Back on the road for a while, and then we stored the RV at an Orlando storage facility for several months while we flew home. We picked up the Winnie in Orlando in January of 2002, and drove about half a mile accompanied by the sound of a rapidly increasing engine knock - it did not sound good!
We broke down next door to a good sized auto repair shop. They checked it out with me, and we agreed that there was a major internal motor problem. (It turned out to be a bad wrist pin). We discussed the options - we thought all would require removal of the engine. (In hindsight, it might have been possible to pull one head and the pan with the engine in place, remove the bad piston and rod, and replace without pulling the engine. With good luck, some labor savings. But we thought it was a rod bearing, which would have necessitated engine removal to turn the crank at the least.)
We were looking at the cost of removal and replacement of the motor, plus the cost of tearing down and repairing the engine. The estimate was $800 to $1000 for the actual engine repair, depending on required machining and parts, plus R&R. I called NAPA and found that I could buy a remanufactured "long block" (nearly complete motor assembly) for $1650. I negotiated a labor charge with the repair shop manager of $1600 for removing and replacing the motor, plus the cost of needed gaskets, hoses, etc.
I had to choose between an estimated $2600 to remove, repair, and reinstall my motor, or about $3400 to remove mine and replace it with a remanufactured NAPA motor. I chose to spend the extra $800 and have a motor with zero miles on most components rather than fix mine with 95,000 miles. Based on doing the math, the problem seemed simple. $3400 and a few weeks later, and I would be good as new.
ALAS, Not So!
We returned some weeks later to pick up the Winnie with the new motor. We were met by a new service manager and new mechanic - NOT a good sign. We had been told by phone that the Winnie was complete and ready to go. It was running - barely. It was running rough, with numerous exhaust leaks, and many missing accessories. I will say this for the guys at the shop - they did try to fix enough of the problems to get us on our way home. We had to be back in New York over 1000 miles away in five days. This is the biggest problem with repairs done many miles from home. It is not possible to simply hold out until everything is fixed properly.
The problem was that the original service manager had taken the old motor out and started on the repair and then had been "fired/quit". A new mechanic had come on board in the middle of the job and tried to put everything together the way it came apart. Even with the best of intentions, this is very hard to do. When we picked up the Winnie, the "incidental parts" charge was a little more than we expected, but the shop was very reasonable about negotiating this down. Our case is definitely not one of being "Ripped off" for more money than we were quoted. It is a case of inept workmanship causing us great inconvenience and extra expense putting things in order.
A detailed description of our efforts to "repair the repair" will be posted here soon. Below is a quick summary of the repair bills I have had since the motor swap. Many of them are related to fixing the many screw-ups made while reinstalling the NAPA motor. A few are unrelated.
4-24-02 Picked up RV from repair shop: $2350.33 parts & labor + $1650 NAPA rebuilt = $4000.33
4-26-02 patched vacuum leaks and tune-up on way home (Wallace's auto $203.52)
5-23-02 Kruska's routine work on brakes & bearings (NOT related to motor problems) - $942.00
6-17-02 fuel pump repair (NOT related to bad motor job) $109.03
9-25-02 R&K Auto - too many parts of cruise control disabled or lost during engine swap - replaced with electronic cruise control - $395.00
TO BE CONTINUED: As of 10-17-02 RV is finally running well with most systems back to where they were before the engine swap. We still have to purchase and install an airpump, brackets, and air injection plumbing to make the emissions control system legal (all this was removed and lost by the mechanics in Florida.)
TOTAL COST of repairs resulting from the blown engine to date: $9182.91 !!!!!!!!!!
A Dumb Decision to Make the Repair?
The $9182.91 I have spent repairing the RV this year is about the going price for buying a similar 1984 unit in good repair.
If I had made a "forced sale" of the RV with the blown engine in Florida instead of doing the repair, I expect I would have been able to get about $2000 which I could have applied to the purchase of another RV. I probably would have pulled the $2400 US Gear overdrive unit off, and installed it on my next RV.
Net result is that if I had junked the RV and bought another one, the cost would have been much the same as I have incurred going through all the repairs, with
"PROBABLY" less aggravation!The "probably less aggravation" is in consideration of the fact that another used RV might have had its own problems and some expenses.
On the other hand, I now have a unit that I know and trust, with a new motor.
Recovery of Negligent Repair costs?
I have filed a claim with the repair shop in Florida for reimbursement of the expenses I've been forced to make to fix their screw-ups. There is still a slight chance I may get something from the shop's insurance. As mentioned above, there was generally good will between the shop management and ourselves. They have asked for detailed invoices which we will soon send them.
I have my doubts that I will get any reimbursement from them voluntarily. There is enough money at stake so that a Florida attorney is willing to take the case on contingency. But contingency means the lawyers get a huge chunk of any money recovered, plus their expenses. The very best case for us is that we might get back a little less than half what we have spent. Law suits are almost always a loser - only make sense to me to cause discomfort to an enemy. And in this case we don't even have very negative feelings towards the Florida mechanics (except for the times when I am writing large repair checks!). So we are still muling over whether to go to the bother of legal action.
PS: If you read this Lanny, you know you should shoulder responsibility for some of this!
1997 fall bought first
1999 trip west with winnie 1
fall 2000 bought winnie 2